tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588236197446203618.post6905406992100143642..comments2023-10-31T05:22:37.723-07:00Comments on The Right Geek: Challenging Comfortable Fictions, Part II: The Question of QualityThe Right Geekhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09649094767960738820noreply@blogger.comBlogger34125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588236197446203618.post-20893605553120300112015-08-31T10:56:01.886-07:002015-08-31T10:56:01.886-07:00Rowntree captures my feelings regarding the legiti...<i>Rowntree captures my feelings regarding the legitimacy of formulae and tropes, </i><br /><br />And here's the thing; I think much of the best *innovative* work relies on the existence of those tropes, and new ways of looking at them. For example, one of my favorite artists is Anselm Kiefer -- and his ways of hearkening back to historical or religious traditions grounds his works and allows people ways to follow him into them, even when they seem forbidding at first. I'll never forget singing "Maikäfer flieg/dein Vater ist im Krieg" with a group of art fans in front of one of his massive canvases at the MOMA.<br /><br />Or, to use another example -- one of the greatest works on innovation and change, and one of the most challenging of the tropes of its time, to my lights, was Thomas M. Disch's "Camp Concentration" -- which has Faust and Rilke running through every paragraph.<br /><br /><i>Black-and-white moralizing from either the right OR the left has a very limited reach.</i><br /><br />We are in definite agreement.<br /><br />While a non-genre example, one of my favorite books dealing with some of this is "Not The End Of The World", by Chris Brookmyre. Brookmyre has a satirist's eye for most everyone -- but he does a *brilliant* job, IMHO, of explaining how his Pat-Robertson-In-The-80-s analogue got to *be* that way, showing sympathy -- while still painting him as a villain, just one you can understand how he got there.<br /><br /><i>And as for the eternal tension between the avant-garde and the popularizers: Yep. That fight we will always have with us. </i><br /><br />And, to me, it's a fight...how shall we put this? It's a fight that we need to keep having, because if either side wins, the genre (any genre) is effectively dead, either due to lack of audience or lack of innovation.<br /><br />And you're most welcome; thank you for holding up the other tin-can-on-a-wire. :)imnotandreihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15850536340957506236noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588236197446203618.post-90323085631686049672015-08-31T10:31:17.472-07:002015-08-31T10:31:17.472-07:00imnotandrei: On the subject of "evil is alway...imnotandrei: On the subject of "evil is always evil and good is always good," that's why I said the post in question was "about" where I stand. Rowntree captures my feelings regarding the legitimacy of formulae and tropes, but you're right: You DO have to perform a delicate balancing act between respecting those tropes and OVER-simplifying reality. Black-and-white moralizing from either the right OR the left has a very limited reach.<br /><br />And as for the eternal tension between the avant-garde and the popularizers: Yep. That fight we will always have with us. The only constructive thing we can do, in my opinion, is keep the lines of communication open -- which, to your credit, you have done. I thank you. ;)The Right Geekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09649094767960738820noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588236197446203618.post-56576808487721492742015-08-31T10:09:48.456-07:002015-08-31T10:09:48.456-07:00I see: indeed, we come from very different viewpoi...I see: indeed, we come from very different viewpoints, because while I appreciate the importance of grounding, the idea of such a strong binary as Rowntree presents -- "but the evil is always evil, not misunderstood, and the good is always heroic, not tragically naïve" feels a long distance away from the "truth" presented later; it is literature as moral exemplar, rather than literature as exploration of the human condition.<br /><br />For me, there's a somewhat nebulous double layer, as I see it, in most artistic worlds (even in microcosm) -- a small group that is trying to push the oundaries of the world, whatever that is -- and a larger group that takes what that small group does, internalizes it, and popularizes it. Unfortunately, awards and the like don't track this model, and so the difference between "best" and "most avant-garde" and "most popular" become matters of contention.<br /><br />It's rather like the old line about the Velvet Underground -- "Only a few thousand people heard them, but every single one went and formed a band" -- and now they're recognized as influential out of all proportion to their record sales. Some people think that puts them in the "Best" discussion -- or at least the "Hall of Fame" discussion -- while others do not.imnotandreihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15850536340957506236noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588236197446203618.post-8656333781020674812015-08-31T09:48:31.049-07:002015-08-31T09:48:31.049-07:00You're welcome! And hopefully, you will start ...You're welcome! And hopefully, you will start to make some serious headway when it comes to making the high arts relevant to the common audience.The Right Geekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09649094767960738820noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588236197446203618.post-82617421176940809132015-08-31T09:47:02.184-07:002015-08-31T09:47:02.184-07:00If you started such an award, I would happily supp...If you started such an award, I would happily support it.The Right Geekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09649094767960738820noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588236197446203618.post-14073726623321521772015-08-31T08:28:47.779-07:002015-08-31T08:28:47.779-07:00imnotandrei: I don't think innovation and fun ...imnotandrei: I don't think innovation and fun are necessarily inversely correlated. I think certain ATTITUDES regarding innovation, however, can be. Attitudes that discount the importance of entertainment and audience engagement are attitudes that I find worrying.<br /><br />To give you a good sense of my own feelings on this issue, allow me to point you to Suzannah Rowntree's post on the subject: <br /><br />http://www.ljagilamplighter.com/2015/04/01/superversive-blog-when-originality-is-a-bad-thing/ <br /><br />If you disagree with her points, fair enough. But that's about where I stand.The Right Geekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09649094767960738820noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588236197446203618.post-71407169343688611422015-08-31T08:09:29.575-07:002015-08-31T08:09:29.575-07:00. I will say, though, that the people who DON'...<i>. I will say, though, that the people who DON'T like it aren't simply exercised by the pronoun thing.</i><br /><br />How shall we put this -- I'm glad to hear that other people have different issues; what gets heard outside of the Puppysphere most often, I think, is a complaint about gender issues.<br /><br />A question: It seems to me that you think innovation/etc and fun are, if not contradictory, at least inversely correlated; while I know for me, the two are well-correlated, and in my sense of quality (as opposed to fun) they are even more strongly correlated. I had to explain to someone elseblog that I could easily go "I liked A better than B, but found B to be a better book" -- does this seem easy/logical to you?imnotandreihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15850536340957506236noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588236197446203618.post-52178009242214332322015-08-31T06:22:23.580-07:002015-08-31T06:22:23.580-07:00imnotandrei: If you liked Ancillary Justice, that&...imnotandrei: If you liked Ancillary Justice, that's your prerogative. I will say, though, that the people who DON'T like it aren't simply exercised by the pronoun thing. The principal complaint that my compatriots have deals with the book's PACING. That may not bother you, but it evidently bothers many others.<br /><br />(By the way: I'm in the "neither love nor hate" camp when it comes to Leckie's work. I see both the merits and the flaws.)The Right Geekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09649094767960738820noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588236197446203618.post-27308001823569134992015-08-30T07:51:09.873-07:002015-08-30T07:51:09.873-07:00With that in mind, the fact that Scalzi's pop ...<i>With that in mind, the fact that Scalzi's pop art has won multiple awards should indicate Butcher's "Skin Game" was passed over exclusively due to petulance.</i><br /><br />Why? There were at least 4 novels on the ballot that were, at least, utterly workable pieces of commercial fiction -- and three which aimed somewhat higher. In light of this, why was Butcher "passed over" because people preferred 3BP, TGE, or Ancillary Sword?imnotandreihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15850536340957506236noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588236197446203618.post-9412963343594085262015-08-30T07:19:18.341-07:002015-08-30T07:19:18.341-07:00Thanks for sharing a link to my article on con art...Thanks for sharing a link to my article on con artist Tracey Emin and her enablers. The artistic movements of Stuckism/Remodernism have been confronting the decadent establishment for a long time now. The culture war has many fronts, but the unifying factor is elitists have corrupted the arts with their dysfunctional cronyism and agendas. They've lost all credibility and their influence must be eliminated. This is just the beginning, it is going to be a glorious process. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588236197446203618.post-29831937131348680652015-08-30T06:58:21.871-07:002015-08-30T06:58:21.871-07:00I had a discussion once with a professional songwr...I had a discussion once with a professional songwriter who said, in effect, that just because the song sounded simple didn't mean it wasn't the result of an expert at work. With that in mind, the fact that Scalzi's pop art has won multiple awards should indicate Butcher's "Skin Game" was passed over exclusively due to petulance. The consumer in me knows that the only method to combat such idiocy is to let my wallet speak loudest.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17026510947294614909noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588236197446203618.post-24722122772555923762015-08-29T17:01:57.628-07:002015-08-29T17:01:57.628-07:00SF / Fantasy fans are entertained principally by i...<i> SF / Fantasy fans are entertained principally by imaginative plotting and world-building. By implication, those who dominate the Hugo balloting are not representative of SF / Fantasy fandom. Their agenda diverges noticeably from ours.</i><br /><br />Or they find different things imaginative in their world-building and plotting. Example: Ancillary Justice, which, to me, provided fascinating plotting and worldbuilding, but apparently has caused many people quite a bit of upset for, essentially, grammatical reasons.<br /><br />imnotandreihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15850536340957506236noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588236197446203618.post-21784670801728813242015-08-29T15:46:11.706-07:002015-08-29T15:46:11.706-07:00I, too, feel that there are lots of other ways to ...I, too, feel that there are lots of other ways to create quality rather than style for style's sake. Were I a billionaire, I'd be happy to fund "lost works of Mozart/ Beethoven; Van Gogh/ Rembrandt; Bernini /Rodin" contests to award prizes for quality work in a no-longer-original but still beautiful style.<br /><br />(So to is inspiring wonder << So, too, is inspiring wonder / beauty)Tom Greyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15046612425809449502noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588236197446203618.post-6519790270908508482015-08-29T15:27:25.242-07:002015-08-29T15:27:25.242-07:00Thank you for your missive, Ted. I think I can ass...Thank you for your missive, Ted. I think I can assure you that we SP's are most assuredly NOT evil and DO simply disagree with respect to content. ;)The Right Geekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09649094767960738820noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588236197446203618.post-38289419330872004672015-08-29T15:17:22.973-07:002015-08-29T15:17:22.973-07:00Back from Worldcon by Sasquan. My role required me...Back from Worldcon by Sasquan. My role required me be studiously neutral. Even now, in some of the fora, debate rages on whether a particular official forum is the place for this or that side to crow over the bons mots of some media wag. Those are mostly AP. I, a fan for 59 years, sometime con attendee and volunteer, find the exercise much like discussing Justin Bieber with a 16 y-o, with as much near-shrieking as Ghostbusters Day in the Other World. Bloc voting, nominating, and organizing we will have with us always, like the poor. To me the difference seems in APs anathematizing SPs as evil for their preferences. I would like to believe that SPs simply disagree with respect to content. Regards, Ted Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06520444559629704778noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588236197446203618.post-18629539813385297652015-08-29T13:58:08.395-07:002015-08-29T13:58:08.395-07:00Thank you for your interesting perspective! I may ...Thank you for your interesting perspective! I may be a woman of the center right, but I love to hear from folks from the other side who are thinking seriously about the growing gulf between the public and the creative world. The Right Geekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09649094767960738820noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588236197446203618.post-75494125514139505512015-08-29T09:41:54.366-07:002015-08-29T09:41:54.366-07:00Yeah, like _Lord of Light_, "A Rose for Eccle...Yeah, like _Lord of Light_, "A Rose for Ecclesiastes", _Canticle for Liebowitz_, and Jim Blish's books like _The Day After Judgement_. Charlie Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14586506407851173416noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588236197446203618.post-91182053521591113002015-08-29T09:38:20.860-07:002015-08-29T09:38:20.860-07:00Somehow Hemingway managed to be well thought of, w...Somehow Hemingway managed to be well thought of, writing at a fifth-grade level.Charlie Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14586506407851173416noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588236197446203618.post-90859461328790125002015-08-29T09:26:18.291-07:002015-08-29T09:26:18.291-07:00Let's talk seriously about the avant garde in ...Let's talk seriously about the avant garde in the arts and how it died and became po-mo. First, it's important to understand that the avant garde artists of the world originally aimed not to created elitist works but to overturn the then current norms. An artist like Manet, for instance, ignored conventional standards of perspective when he painted Luncheon on the Grass, and Courbet also overturned conventional academic standards of painting with his realist works. The aim was not merely to shock the bourgeois but to create a new set of rules, ones that were based on a fidelity to their own artistic visions and the lived realities of modernity. <br />In the 20th century, however, what happened was the idea of creating a new set of rules and standards was put aside in favor of pluralism itself. <br />A good example of the difference between the avant garde art practices of the late 19th and early 20th century and the postmodern works of today can be seen by comparing neo-expressionism to abstract expressionism. The first was an art movement without rules or aims, it was celebrity driven and mostly about marketing, about navigating the art world, the second (whether you like it or hate it) was a movement that held true to a common principle (the abandonment of representation and the emphasis on the painterly gesture) and whether you like or hate abstract expressionism this difference is important.<br />So, when it comes to genre work (finally) we on the left (I count myself there) have to ask ourselves what our aim is and what we want to create that will change the terms of the popular. Too often, however, what is done is something more like neo-expressionism.<br />Douglas Lainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14570730501327022914noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588236197446203618.post-18053538083086769152015-08-29T07:57:46.861-07:002015-08-29T07:57:46.861-07:00I became aware of Stuckism a few weeks ago and was...I became aware of Stuckism a few weeks ago and was immediately delighted. If you're a member, please continue what you're doing. We need people fighting on ALL fronts. The Right Geekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09649094767960738820noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588236197446203618.post-38988994272427166092015-08-29T07:49:30.519-07:002015-08-29T07:49:30.519-07:00Interesting that you mentioned Tracey Emin and by ...Interesting that you mentioned Tracey Emin and by extension the YBA's. Were you aware that there is an entire counter movement within the arts? (Mostly Painting) It all started with an argument between Emin and her then boyfriend Billy Childish. It's called Stuckism which was founded by Childish and Charles Thomson. Chidish made some sort of sarcastic remark about her winning such a huge $ reward for her bed, and she screamed that he and his painting were "Stuck, Stuck, Stuck!" (I've been a member since 2008 or so.) My only relevant point is that there is a counter elitists BS cultural movement sprouting up here and there.F. A. Alsbachhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08270239407396223095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588236197446203618.post-62381676410111192572015-08-29T07:29:09.409-07:002015-08-29T07:29:09.409-07:00I'm not sure I'm ready to cede the Hugos j...I'm not sure I'm ready to cede the Hugos just yet. I do, however, understand your pessimism. The Right Geekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09649094767960738820noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588236197446203618.post-65011154795251861472015-08-29T07:27:00.930-07:002015-08-29T07:27:00.930-07:00I agree that many AP's use their taste in scie...I agree that many AP's use their taste in science fiction as a virtue-signalling device. And yes: If you believe such tastes make you one of the "good people," it's going to be VERY difficult for you to accept the idea that you're wrong.The Right Geekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09649094767960738820noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588236197446203618.post-21485684458887467332015-08-29T07:19:59.231-07:002015-08-29T07:19:59.231-07:00I HAVE read that. It was in the back of my mind th...I HAVE read that. It was in the back of my mind the whole time I was writing this post. Mind you, I'm not sure I agree with Raymond on every particular. I don't think, for example, that science fiction must avoid faith and stick to a materialistic understanding of the cosmos. But in many respects, that post was right on.The Right Geekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09649094767960738820noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588236197446203618.post-28787682431882707602015-08-29T07:13:57.410-07:002015-08-29T07:13:57.410-07:00Agreed. In fact, as an educator myself, I can go o...Agreed. In fact, as an educator myself, I can go on for HOURS about how the standard approach to teaching English and literature in K-12 (and beyond) is profoundly misguided and dysfunctional. The Right Geekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09649094767960738820noreply@blogger.com